42 replies to this topic

[bbqroast]

RP2 Control is out, and it is on a collision course with CC. I'm not saying we should go to war, but competition is good.
Namely, the big trump for CC is LUA. Eloraam seems to be going for retro styled computing, while this sounds fun and makes demos interesting it isn't the same as CC. CC is going towards actually being used by your average Minecrafter. Awesome projects or just small things that you don't want to spend half a year working on are a million times better suited to LUA than Forth.
The main trump that Eloraam has over CC is that RP Control is actually viable on SMP. The requirements for resources, processing and storage limits along with power consumption (althrough RP2 power is pretty sucky when it comes down to it) means it can be used on SMP without someone just making a hundred infinite loop running computers.
Suggestions:
1. Work with IC2 (not as a requirement, but optional). Have computers, turtles, modems, etc require IC2 power (if installed). This makes the game far more balanced, also IC2 resources could be used to create more realistic recipies (in terms of price to usefulness). I think it would be cool if we could set the broadcasting range of wireless modems, but it would use more power for longer messages and distances.
2. Work on SMP. I have seen CC devs simply say "you should never run CC on a public SMP server" in fact some of them act like SMP is just a dream. That no big communities thrive on SMP, that no modded servers have ever stayed online for more than a day. This seems silly, SMP is a vital part of any mod and should be worked on equally with (if not more than) SSP.
3. Add limits. Things like hard drive and RAM usage should be limited. This helps with SMP and makes it more balanced and challenging. Maybe add 128K RAM packs that can be attached to computers?? To supplement an exisiting 512KB of memory (LUA overhead ignored most programs could easily get by a couple 100KB)?? Hard disks could be a 1 or 2 MB (supplementing an exisiting 2 MB in the computer?)??
4. "CPU units" these would have nothing to do with computers. But could be placed on the ground and given a floppy disk. They would run this floppy disk in an endless loop. They would be aimed at replacing redstone solutions and such where high reliability is wanted (if they for some reason were stopped in someway they reboot). Alternatively they could have a set of functions that are automatically ran when certain events occur (like redstone input being changed), they would have a "vault" of persistant storage for variables.

The core functionality is good, but it isn't the same. Because it is free. The recipe for the computer is cheap as chips, and once you have it there are no on going costs. What has been created is awesome, the amount of functionality is amazing- but one of the things that has made Minecraft so succesful is making users work for that functionality.

[D3matt]

The thing I like about CC is that I can go out, mine for 5 minutes, and come back with enough stuff to sit around programming and fiddling for hours. Please don't change this.

[Luanub]

We work for that funcationality by writing the code. For most that is challenging enough on its own, and the effort that it takes to get the code working for them is much more of an investment(time wise) then gathering mats. Which I believe is a big part of why the computercraft items are so cheap.

I don't think you will ever see this mod dependant(optional or not) on another Mod such as IC2, this has been brought up several times and I'm pretty sure it will never happen.

There was already a post allong the lines of this one that was suggesting adding a fuel requirement to make the turtles more expensive to use. If you want more information on this subject I would read that post.

[D3matt]

luanub, on 25 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

I don't think you will ever see this mod dependant(optional or not) on another Mod such as IC2, this has been brought up several times and I'm pretty sure it will never happen.

Redpower?

[Luanub]

Redpower is probably the only one, and its been that way from the start. Redpower Control was the inspiration for CC and Dan has worked with Eloraam since the start.

Also its not depenant upon RP in anyway. You can use RP with CC for extra functionality but its not required to do anything.

Edited by luanub, 25 May 2012 - 07:57 AM.

[bbqroast]

Exactly, you could use CC with IC2 for extra functionality but it wouldn't be required.

Quote

We work for that funcationality by writing the code. For most that is challenging enough on its own, and the effort that it takes to get the code working for them is much more of an investment(time wise) then gathering mats. Which I believe is a big part of why the computercraft items are so cheap.

People like working to get stuff, it makes it more interesting. If you don't want it don't install IC2 (or have CC load before it).

Quote

The thing I like about CC is that I can go out, mine for 5 minutes, and come back with enough stuff to sit around programming and fiddling for hours. Please don't change this.

Seriously? That 5 minutes means that much. You could do the same as the above. Now before you all go "every said..." on me remember that we are talking about the entire Minecraft community, not just the part that likes CC in its current state.

[Luanub]

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Exactly, you could use CC with IC2 for extra functionality but it wouldn't be required.

Adding a fuel/power requirement does not add functionality, if anything it adds restrictions. Its not quite the same thing.. />

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

People like working to get stuff, it makes it more interesting. If you don't want it don't install IC2 (or have CC load before it).

What if you want IC2, but without the power restrictions of people that dont use IC2? So now you choose to use IC2 which has nothing to do with CC and you have to invest more to use CC items then other that dont use it? How does that seem just and the right thing to do?

They have already added peripheral support with which someone made ccsensors which is a great addon for CC which allows access to some of the IC2 stuff and furthers the functionality of CC w/IC2. This is the type of improvements we should see in regards to CC and other mods.

However it should be handled just as the ccsensors was as an addon to CC thats available to those that choose to use, not part of the vanilla CC.

And remember computers where made to make life easier, not complicate them.. If you want a challenge, dont use CC or RP Control, make it out of redstone and torches.. I remember the size of my 4bit decoder that I built and how limited it was, good times..

[Cloudy]

First off, thank you for your post. It does look quite well thought out, even if I don't agree with everything. I'll reply to your post bit by bit and try and respond to what else has been said in this thread.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

The main trump that Eloraam has over CC is that RP Control is actually viable on SMP. The requirements for resources, processing and storage limits along with power consumption (althrough RP2 power is pretty sucky when it comes down to it) means it can be used on SMP without someone just making a hundred infinite loop running computers.

CC is perfectly viable for SMP - however, I do agree that a more expensive recipe should be an option. I will talk to Dan about a way to do that - I do have some ideas that I would like to experiment with once I am back on my computer.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Suggestions:
1. Work with IC2 (not as a requirement, but optional). Have computers, turtles, modems, etc require IC2 power (if installed). This makes the game far more balanced, also IC2 resources could be used to create more realistic recipies (in terms of price to usefulness). I think it would be cool if we could set the broadcasting range of wireless modems, but it would use more power for longer messages and distances.

I think that some interaction with the other tech mods, beyond interfacing with redpower wires would be neat. Again, I think it should be configured by server owners - but I think that if the integration is too heavy or it is too configurable for server owners, then users won't have a consistent experience. I'll speak to Dan about his thoughts on the matter - I do have some ideas on how to implement this.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

2. Work on SMP. I have seen CC devs simply say "you should never run CC on a public SMP server" in fact some of them act like SMP is just a dream. That no big communities thrive on SMP, that no modded servers have ever stayed online for more than a day. This seems silly, SMP is a vital part of any mod and should be worked on equally with (if not more than) SSP.

The reason we say CC shouldn't be run on a public SMP server is due to the fact that due to the way the Lua integration is designed, by necessity, people could cause issues. However, this does seem to be less of a problem than initially thought. SMP isn't an after thought - you can tell this by how all the features in SSP work in SMP with no problems.

I would like server owners thoughts on how to make things better for them. If you could send me a PM with your thoughts, I will look into it when I get time, and run my ideas by Dan.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

3. Add limits. Things like hard drive and RAM usage should be limited. This helps with SMP and makes it more balanced and challenging. Maybe add 128K RAM packs that can be attached to computers?? To supplement an exisiting 512KB of memory (LUA overhead ignored most programs could easily get by a couple 100KB)?? Hard disks could be a 1 or 2 MB (supplementing an exisiting 2 MB in the computer?)??

Due to the way Lua in Java works, adding RAM limits isn't possible. Adding hard drive limits is an option, but difficult to implement. However, I will speak to Dan for his thoughts.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

4. "CPU units" these would have nothing to do with computers. But could be placed on the ground and given a floppy disk. They would run this floppy disk in an endless loop. They would be aimed at replacing redstone solutions and such where high reliability is wanted (if they for some reason were stopped in someway they reboot). Alternatively they could have a set of functions that are automatically ran when certain events occur (like redstone input being changed), they would have a "vault" of persistant storage for variables.

Nah, I don't think that is going to happen - all of this can be done presently from a regular computer, including the persistent storage. However, persistent variable storage which is transparent to the user is something that I want to look into included as part of the Vanilla mod. That is one thing that RP control has over CC right now - when you shut down a server it just resumes where it was. Ideally, I'd like to save the Lua state when a computer is shut down, but it wouldn't be easy to implement without significantly altering LuaJ and I don't think it is worth it.

Perhaps we can provide an API, Lua or Java side which will allow you to resume a program more or less in the same state as it was. It won't be transparent to the coder, but I think it would be useful. Usual applies - I'll speak to Dan.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

The core functionality is good, but it isn't the same. Because it is free. The recipe for the computer is cheap as chips, and once you have it there are no on going costs. What has been created is awesome, the amount of functionality is amazing- but one of the things that has made Minecraft so succesful is making users work for that functionality.

See above regarding an optional more expensive recipe. Having said that, I think luanub does make some good points regarding that coding is half the work - but as I said I would like suggestions from server owners to be PM'd to me.

[Xfel]

The default lua VM supports a library called "pluto", which can persist any lua values. maybe it would be good to switch the lua implementation to a native one (and ship the native libraries with the download). This would also enable lua 5.2 support,which adds many nice features.

[bbqroast]

Cloudy, on 25 May 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Due to the way Lua in Java works, adding RAM limits isn't possible. Adding hard drive limits is an option, but difficult to implement. However, I will speak to Dan for his thoughts.

Ahh, that is what I feared. HD limitation shouldn't be to hard, more importantly it needs to filter bad characters.

[Teraminer]

for a more expensive recipe ( if IC2 is innstalled ) all would be like normal exept that you would need an advanced electronic curcuit (<-- spelling).
You could using an recipe maker (or something like that do it your self).

[immibis]

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

along with power consumption (althrough RP2 power is pretty sucky when it comes down to it)

RPC doesn't actually use blutricity.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Suggestions:
1. Work with IC2 (not as a requirement, but optional). Have computers, turtles, modems, etc require IC2 power (if installed). This makes the game far more balanced, also IC2 resources could be used to create more realistic recipies (in terms of price to usefulness). I think it would be cool if we could set the broadcasting range of wireless modems, but it would use more power for longer messages and distances.

Redstone doesn't require power, and computers are just miniaturized redstone, so no.
Although the idea of a long-range modem that does require power (proportional to the square of the range of course) is nice.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

2. Work on SMP. I have seen CC devs simply say "you should never run CC on a public SMP server" in fact some of them act like SMP is just a dream. That no big communities thrive on SMP, that no modded servers have ever stayed online for more than a day. This seems silly, SMP is a vital part of any mod and should be worked on equally with (if not more than) SSP.

Agreed.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

3. Add limits. Things like hard drive and RAM usage should be limited. This helps with SMP and makes it more balanced and challenging. Maybe add 128K RAM packs that can be attached to computers?? To supplement an exisiting 512KB of memory (LUA overhead ignored most programs could easily get by a couple 100KB)?? Hard disks could be a 1 or 2 MB (supplementing an exisiting 2 MB in the computer?)??

Not practical with the current system. There's no way to easily measure space or stop a program from using more.

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

4. "CPU units" these would have nothing to do with computers. But could be placed on the ground and given a floppy disk. They would run this floppy disk in an endless loop. They would be aimed at replacing redstone solutions and such where high reliability is wanted (if they for some reason were stopped in someway they reboot). Alternatively they could have a set of functions that are automatically ran when certain events occur (like redstone input being changed), they would have a "vault" of persistant storage for variables.

I don't get it. There should be CPU units (central processing unit units), which act exactly like computers but are nothing to do with computers?

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

The core functionality is good, but it isn't the same. Because it is free. The recipe for the computer is cheap as chips, and once you have it there are no on going costs. What has been created is awesome, the amount of functionality is amazing- but one of the things that has made Minecraft so succesful is making users work for that functionality.

I like being able to mess around for little cost. Others might not feel the same way. Besides, you can't really affect the in-game world much unless you have a mining turtle, which costs diamonds.

[Bossman201]

If you have Equivalent Exchange, nothing any mod has or will create will be expensive.

[kazagistar]

immibis, on 30 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Not practical with the current system. There's no way to easily measure space or stop a program from using more.

Actually, this can basically be implemented in the lua interface with some effort and in java easily. All you need to do is overwrite all the file writing and reading functions (not that many) to track how big of files are being written to and deleted and such, and block if over. Rom will simply not count towards the limit (which makes sense).

immibis, on 30 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I don't get it. There should be CPU units (central processing unit units), which act exactly like computers but are nothing to do with computers?

Computers cannot be turned on and kept on automatically with 100% reliability. I think should be solved more directly somehow.

immibis, on 30 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I like being able to mess around for little cost. Others might not feel the same way. Besides, you can't really affect the in-game world much unless you have a mining turtle, which costs diamonds.

Custom crafting costs make everyone happy.

[LucasUK]

Quote

4. "CPU units" these would have nothing to do with computers. But could be placed on the ground and given a floppy disk. They would run this floppy disk in an endless loop. They would be aimed at replacing redstone solutions and such where high reliability is wanted (if they for some reason were stopped in someway they reboot). Alternatively they could have a set of functions that are automatically ran when certain events occur (like redstone input being changed), they would have a "vault" of persistant storage for variables.

I like this for some strange reason, basically to create a dedicated piece of hardware, or in effect a custom minecraft block whose type is decided by the floppy /> Although as they say a pc can do this anyway with a start-up program on disk and the reliability thing would probably be sorted on the pc if it could be and there's a reason as to why its not outside our control.. (?)

[Mr909]

I think people who argue resource efficiency on anything that doesn't actively do anything in and of itself are missing the point: Minecraft is about creativity. Creativity is about fun, not realism. Games, for the most part, are made to be fun, not realistic. Game balance is not based on principles of realism, game balance is based on principles of effectiveness.

So honestly, tell me what a Computer does. Nothing. It sends and receives messages with the modem, it allows you to read and write programs that do potentially cool things. But it doesn't interact with the WORLD. This is why Redstone torches don't need fuel and regular torches don't burn out. Would it be realistic? Yes. But they require blocks to interact with them before they do anything, thus don't merit a resource cost.

All resource costs in the game to-date are based on item-block-world interaction. IC2, RP2, and most others all understand this. EquivEx and ThaumCraft have resource costs out the wazoo. Why? Because they creates, destroys, and modifies on a gargantuan level. IC2 is all about bigger and better, bigger and better, and works on it's own principles to expand the resource system. What do IC2 machines do? For the most part, they make IC2 machines. XD
Redpower (sans control), very similar. It builds mechanisms for DOING things. Auto-Farms, Factories, etc. And for that, Nikolite and other resources are very much so adequately considered.

The only real counterargument? Turtles. They can move, and destroy. I sometimes believe Turtles MIGHT merit a higher resource cost/require fuel/etc.

As for RP control? I think it is way under-powered for its resource cost, especially since it requires 3+ specialty blocks for it to even interact with the environment.

I agree with everyone else, the resource "cost" is time/code and should stay that way.

[Teraminer]

And about RP computers they are not OP or UP they are a powerful tool for factorys, quarrys and other but are expensive enouph I mean diamond block?! (exept if you have EE2 wich I do />)

[Pinkishu]

Teraminer, on 11 July 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

And about RP computers they are not OP or UP they are a powerful tool for factorys, quarrys and other but are expensive enouph I mean diamond block?! (exept if you have EE2 wich I do />)

Or if you just go creative mode instead of clinging to a EE broken survival />

But yeah RP2 PCs are nice for a couple of tasks (e.g. long range wired transfer, easy tick-accurate processing etc)

[Teraminer]

It's a broken SMP D:

[Teraminer]

bbqroast, on 25 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

RP2 Control is out, and it is on a collision course with CC. I'm not saying we should go to war, but competition is good.
Namely, the big trump for CC is LUA. Eloraam seems to be going for retro styled computing, while this sounds fun and makes demos interesting it isn't the same as CC. CC is going towards actually being used by your average Minecrafter. Awesome projects or just small things that you don't want to spend half a year working on are a million times better suited to LUA than Forth.
The main trump that Eloraam has over CC is that RP Control is actually viable on SMP. The requirements for resources, processing and storage limits along with power consumption (althrough RP2 power is pretty sucky when it comes down to it) means it can be used on SMP without someone just making a hundred infinite loop running computers.
Suggestions:
1. Work with IC2 (not as a requirement, but optional). Have computers, turtles, modems, etc require IC2 power (if installed). This makes the game far more balanced, also IC2 resources could be used to create more realistic recipies (in terms of price to usefulness). I think it would be cool if we could set the broadcasting range of wireless modems, but it would use more power for longer messages and distances.
2. Work on SMP. I have seen CC devs simply say "you should never run CC on a public SMP server" in fact some of them act like SMP is just a dream. That no big communities thrive on SMP, that no modded servers have ever stayed online for more than a day. This seems silly, SMP is a vital part of any mod and should be worked on equally with (if not more than) SSP.
3. Add limits. Things like hard drive and RAM usage should be limited. This helps with SMP and makes it more balanced and challenging. Maybe add 128K RAM packs that can be attached to computers?? To supplement an exisiting 512KB of memory (LUA overhead ignored most programs could easily get by a couple 100KB)?? Hard disks could be a 1 or 2 MB (supplementing an exisiting 2 MB in the computer?)??
4. "CPU units" these would have nothing to do with computers. But could be placed on the ground and given a floppy disk. They would run this floppy disk in an endless loop. They would be aimed at replacing redstone solutions and such where high reliability is wanted (if they for some reason were stopped in someway they reboot). Alternatively they could have a set of functions that are automatically ran when certain events occur (like redstone input being changed), they would have a "vault" of persistant storage for variables.

The core functionality is good, but it isn't the same. Because it is free. The recipe for the computer is cheap as chips, and once you have it there are no on going costs. What has been created is awesome, the amount of functionality is amazing- but one of the things that has made Minecraft so succesful is making users work for that functionality.

(Forgot this post />) I agree with the Limits thing, they already have a LOT of prosesing speed.