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Windows 10 venting


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#1 LDDestroier

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:55 AM

Let me just get this straight: I hate Microsoft, and Windows 10 by extention. I tried it out on my PC from Windows 7, and discovered over a few days that it plain sucks. Promptly, I installed Classic Shell, which should've been a warning when the standard menu is so bad I had to immediately get a third-party one. After about one or two months, I got sick of using Win10, and wanted to revert. But alas, so says all articles on the internet on the subject, you only have a one month downgrade window for this, and Windows wasn't even courteous enough to TELL ME THAT BEFORE ONE MONTH (well, at all, really)

Might as well make a list:
  • Windows 10's UI (window decorations, applications) is ugly and stupid and reminds me of Win8.
  • The standard start menu has advertisements. In the most basic part of the core operating system.
  • For many people (again, not me, as I willfully and knowingly upgraded,) Windows will upgrade autonomously, without user input or permission. Coupled with the problem above, it makes me want to send my fist through Nadella's skull.
  • On top of the advertisements in the start menu, opening it is noticeably more delayed, and is just horrible in its design. Tiles and a menu looks and feels stupid, and with just the menu, all your apps are organized alphabetically, and presented linearly. This makes searching, which should be a FALLBACK to good menu design, completely non-optional. Sorta like Unity, but I kind of like
  • Microsoft's wondrous privacy concerns.
  • Windows 10 broke the MBR, again. I duel-boot Ubuntu with Windows.
  • The multiple desktop feature even worse than in Gnome 3. Even Gnome 3 allowed for dynamic desktop creation, but both were linearly created, unlike Unity 7 (or hell, MATE, KDE, Gnome 2...)
Sorry, I had to do this because I'm still (evidently) pissed that Win10 did not inform me that I could downgrade, ever. I feel defeated.


EDIT: Removed one irrelevent point, proofread a little, and wanted to remind anyone who looks just at the OP that I am no longer as vitriolic about Windows 10. Only a little.

Edited by LDDestroier, 31 January 2018 - 11:08 PM.


#2 FUNCTION MAN!

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 01:43 AM

View PostLDDestroier, on 28 March 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

  • Windows 10 broke the MBR, again. I duel-boot Ubuntu with Windows.

I was going to point out how you misspelt dual, but in this case, that might be the proper spelling..

In other words: Yes, yes, let the hate flow through you. Come to the dark side.

#3 H4X0RZ

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 01:48 AM

I have a Zorin OS 11(don't hate on me for not using Arch. I just hate to collect every piece of software to get my pc to work.)/Windows 10 dual boot myself and i can only partially agree. Yes, the new start menu sucks. But I would never go back to windows 7 with that (IMO) ugly aero theme (I upgraded after using windows 8.1 for over a year). I only use a handful of programs. This allows me to use rainmeter to get quick access to all of them. When I need to run a program I don't have on my desktop I exactly know what it is. I press the windows key and search it. This usually takes like 2 seconds maximum so it's not really a disadvantage.

Edited by H4X0RZ, 28 March 2016 - 01:59 AM.


#4 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 02:00 AM

Obviously you can still downgrade - just, you know. The long way.

In any case, I'm not really a fan of 10 myself.

There's a saying, "if you're not paying for the product, you are the product". It's fairly obvious how this works in relation to Windows 10 - they're not charging users, but they're obviously pushing as hard as they can to get as many users onto it as possible, so they're obviously selling something to someone.

And indeed, they're pushing. For example, despite promises that it'd never happen, about a fortnight ago 10 was pushed as a "recommended update" (that is to say, "installed automatically under default Windows Update settings") for older OS releases. You might think that the EULA would put the brakes on this, but no, it was rigged to install first, then show the EULA, and if the user didn't accept, it'd attempt a rollback. With varying degrees of success depending on the system in concern. Fun times!

All this business about "get your free upgrade before the cut-off date!" looks like baloney to me. I believe there will be no "cut-off date". Instead, in a gesture of "generosity", Microsoft will decide to extend the "free" period "indefinitely". For now, it's purely another method of encouraging people to upgrade, and to do it sooner rather than later.

See, if MS slaps a price tag on 10, then they'll have to cut out all these underhanded tactics they're using to get people to upgrade to it. They're taking a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" attitude right now, and that's dangerous enough as things stand, but it won't work at all if people's wallets are involved.

Speaking of which, people DID have to pay for the older OS releases. Support for Windows 7, for eg, is promised through to 2019. Microsoft presumably wants to cut the related support crews down sooner rather than later - they've already made whatever money they're going to from 7 sales, and every user who sticks with it is only going to potentially cost them at this point. 7 doesn't have the store, the login ads, and so on.

Policies aside, the OS itself; I have three main gripes:
  • Backwards compatibility. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft puts a lot of work into this - absolutely puts Apple to shame, for one thing - but it's never perfect. If there isn't any software you want to run that "needs" 10 then you only stand to lose functionality by upgrading.
  • Windows Explorer. It still has the network thumbs.db bugs introduced back in 7 (or was it Vista?). It also seems to be incapable of automatically refreshing file listings; even on fresh installations I'm constantly having to mash F5 after deleting or moving files around. It still hasn't brought the info panes back up to the standards set by XP.
  • Updates. This is the big one, which may well prevent me from ever accepting the new OS - a lesson most anyone who's ever had driver issues learned a long time ago is "never, ever let Windows Update touch your drivers unless you're already having trouble with them". 10 does it without asking, and the only way to stop it is to kill the update service entirely. There's no compromise.
I can see the "logic" behind that last point - if everyone's running the latest software, then a whole lot of technical support issues should get wiped out. The average user never installs optional updates, and if given a choice, will promptly hit the "stop bothering me" button and get back to what they want their computer to be doing. You either force updates down people's throat or they don't get done at all. Give users an option to switch to something less aggressive and they'll take it at the first opportunity and never look back.

The ends don't justify the means, however, not in my eyes.

For one thing - I simply don't trust Windows Update to get the right drivers. I recent years, I've come across multiple systems which have the wrong drivers, and Windows will actually attempt to block you from installing the correct ones - because the system manufacturers are recommending older drivers than the component manufacturers.

This can even lead to Windows performing automatic rollbacks on manual driver installs. A great example of this occurred when one of NVidia's driver update tools automatically installed a new driver on a whole heap of systems, and 10 decided they should be using a different version. Cue an infinite loop of the two updaters switching the driver over and over, while in the meantime the computers sat there like bricks.

And what happens if a recent update comes with an actual show-stopping bug? The usual answer is "don't install new updates you don't need for at least a month, let other users try them first, then go ahead if all's well". The cutting edge is the bleeding edge, after all - let the willing serve the role of "beta tester".

Under 10, everyone's the beta tester. If a new driver causes problems, you have to let the wretched thing install anyway, then if your system's still functional then you can tell Windows to uninstall it and not to do it again.

Anyway, I suppose it's only fair that I do feel that the general desktop has been improving somewhat with each new release of Windows. The old Start menu, quite frankly, didn't work - the average user slowly built up a collection of folders which eventually covered the entire screen, same as 8's tiles do, and the only real answer was to either stick shortcuts on the desktop, or on the quick launch bar (and most users didn't really know how to do either). You can customise the menu layout, but cutting down on folders means more icons per folder, and Windows crawls when loading icons. You lose either way.

Mind you, whenever I do use a version with a conventional Start menu, I find myself modding it back to as close to 95's as I can get it. XP would be my favourite release, but I dislike its default interface intensely.

But the tiles interface isn't so bad, mainly because it does a pretty good job of showing you what you use, hiding what you don't, and making it easy to search for anything you want that isn't immediately visible.

That said, I do tend to find myself simply using Explorer to hunt down executables directly these days... Especially in regards to Minecraft. I've got so many builds that it's just not worth the time to set up shortcuts to them all.

#5 Lupus590

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:08 PM

I've found W10 a lot better than the W8 that I upgraded from, I also upgraded my old W7 laptop (which I managed to break the W7 install on but still have as W10 is on another partition).

Yes W10 is not perfect, but I've not had too many problems with it. Windows update hasn't irritated me as much as I thought it would, I did have to validate every game in my steam library, but I'm guessing that I would have to had done that for any OS change.

Most problems that I've had with the W10 I've been able to fix with registry edits, most of them through programs like: personalization panel, ultimate windows tweaker, win aero tweaker, and classic shell (although I don't use the start menu, I installed it late and got used to the tiles). I even recreated most of Bash from several different projects, I've posted about this already: http://www.computerc...p?/topic/25661-

I would still like to use Linux, and have been meaning to convert may old laptop (the one with the broken W7) into a server of some kind. I still need to finish installing arch onto one of the many VMs I have. Maybe I should just use Fedora (I have used this in Uni and have a VM for it already).

I think I still have some minor gripes with W10, but I can't recall the at the moment. I will edit this if I remember them.

Edit:
My Minor Gripes:
  • I would like more control over my OS (all Windows had this problem, but W10 has made it worse)
  • The Settings app is robbing the Control Panel, guess which one I try to use when I can...

Edited by Lupus590, 29 March 2016 - 07:25 PM.


#6 LoganDark

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 07:05 PM

Ugh. I can't stop thinking about you swearing in a post.

Also, I hate Windows 10, 8, 8.1... Windows 7 is my m8 if I can ever get it again.

I got a Mac because I hated Windows 8 and 10 so much, I had to get away from it. And because my PC has UEFI instead of BIOS. Mac OS X El Capitan isn't as bad as you think once you get used to it.

#7 LDDestroier

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 12:24 PM

I lost my entire reply (all finished and everything) because my browser went back two pages for no reason. Take two.

FUNCTION MAN!
Spoiler

H4X0RZ
Spoiler

Bomb Bloke
Spoiler

Lupus590
Spoiler

LoganDark
Spoiler

At the time of posting, I blew away Windows 10 and replaced it with FreeDOS just to piss off my brother (he just finished installing MS Office w/o my permission)

#8 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 01:51 PM

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Also, from what I remember, wasn't it, when XP came out, everybody thought it looked stupid and toyish, then when Vista came out, everybody jumped to XP after seeing how bad it was? I think that's partially true.

XP's default theme is indeed a bit childish, but it supports the ability to take on 95's solid appearance. Vista can do the same, and I think so can 7.

The complaints with Vista had little to do with the look of it, though. Vista and 7's default themes look a lot alike (and people flocked to 7), and aside from the tiles, 8 didn't change much either. No, the problems with Vista were rather more functional than cosmetic.

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

But I can't say the same for Macs. ... At least they don't have a non-case sensitive file system (lookin' at you, Windows)

Macs totally support case in-sensitive file systems, and in fact their volumes are formatted to use them by default.

#9 LoganDark

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:08 PM

View PostBomb Bloke, on 29 March 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

But I can't say the same for Macs. ... At least they don't have a non-case sensitive file system (lookin' at you, Windows)

Macs totally support case in-sensitive file systems, and in fact their volumes are formatted to use them by default.

Yep. I once tried to use a font, and the lowercase "a" couldn't be saved because there was an uppercase "A" in the folder. :P Ended up going with a_lower...

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

I lost my entire reply (all finished and everything) because my browser went back two pages for no reason. Take two.

FUNCTION MAN!
Spoiler

H4X0RZ
Spoiler

Bomb Bloke
Spoiler

Lupus590
Spoiler

LoganDark
Spoiler

At the time of posting, I blew away Windows 10 and replaced it with FreeDOS just to piss off my brother (he just finished installing MS Office w/o my permission)

Did you just put 200 words in my mouth without warning?

I love Mac. It's my platform of choice at the moment. It can even run Windows! Let's see you run Mac on a PC officially (without hacking)

#10 LDDestroier

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:24 PM

View PostLoganDark, on 29 March 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Did you just put 200 words in my mouth without warning?

I love Mac. It's my platform of choice at the moment. It can even run Windows! Let's see you run Mac on a PC officially (without hacking)

Huh? I was saying that I didn't like Macs. And the reason that OS X cannot run on, hmm, any other computer in existence, is because it's designed to be optimized for Apple hardware only. Are you trying to say that OS X running on only one brand of computers is an advantage?

#11 LoganDark

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:46 PM

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

View PostLoganDark, on 29 March 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Did you just put 200 words in my mouth without warning?

I love Mac. It's my platform of choice at the moment. It can even run Windows! Let's see you run Mac on a PC officially (without hacking)

Huh? I was saying that I didn't like Macs. And the reason that OS X cannot run on, hmm, any other computer in existence, is because it's designed to be optimized for Apple hardware only. Are you trying to say that OS X running on only one brand of computers is an advantage?

No, I'm saying Macs are better (in my opinion, they are way too expensive) because they can run both OS. PCs can only run one of them, which is why I switched to Mac. They also look and feel more premium. My old laptop was bigger, bulkier, and half as powerful 20 times over. It also couldn't run Windows 7, which my little brother's old laptop can. So I have that for if I break my Mac or something (he got a new 2-in-1 which his old laptop is not).

Look up hackintosh, buddy. I know why OS X doesn't work on PCs. I've even gotten it to work on an AMD processor, using the legacy kernel, a plethora of kexts, and single-user mode. So I know what I'm doing (then I lost the legacy kernel and my installation went out the window, still can't find the Snow Leopard legacy kernel online)

Edited by LoganDark, 29 March 2016 - 03:46 PM.


#12 LDDestroier

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:04 PM

View PostLoganDark, on 29 March 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

snip

Eh. If it works with you, whatever. I'M certainly not going to buy one, but my annoyance is not completely unfounded. My computer lab uses iMacs exclusively, and the class is called "PC Repair and Networking Systems." I thought that was interesting.

Also, Ubuntu has multiple workspaces switchable with a few keypresses, multiple desktop interfaces if you don't like standard one, excellent driver detection (my wireless mouse, flash drive, camera works out of the box quickly, unlike winblows), and best of all: you can install it on more than one brand of computer and wasn't this post about bashing windows 10? This got off track.

Okay, okay, back on topic. There are advertisements in the start menu. Talk.

#13 Konlab

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:31 PM

But you can disable ads, can't you? By installing another start menu? (Theory alert) I am also sure Microsoft plans something. Is it possible to install apps from sources other than Microsoft's store? How long?

#14 LDDestroier

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:51 PM

View PostKonlab, on 29 March 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

But you can disable ads, can't you? By installing another start menu? (Theory alert) I am also sure Microsoft plans something. Is it possible to install apps from sources other than Microsoft's store? How long?

1. You can disable the ads by removing the tiles with ads, or installing a third-party menu. But ads shouldn't be in a core part of the OS.
2. Of course Microsoft is planning something else. But what...
3. Hopefully, you will never be FORCED to install from the MS store; for both the end-users' and Microsoft's sake.

#15 SquidDev

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 06:13 PM

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

1. You can disable the ads by removing the tiles with ads, or installing a third-party menu. But ads shouldn't be in a core part of the OS.
2. Of course Microsoft is planning something else. But what...
3. Hopefully, you will never be FORCED to install from the MS store; for both the end-users' and Microsoft's sake.

Disclaimer: Never used Windows 10, I mostly use Ubuntu.
  • Ubuntu has advertising in the dash. You can disable them, but they are the default. In the case of Ubuntu it is to fund an open source project, why Windows has them I don't know.
  • "Universal Windows Platform" apps must be verified by Microsoft (in the same way Android or iOS apps must be). Win32 applications can still run without being verified by Microsoft.
  • However there is an option to disable this check.


#16 MKlegoman357

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 07:18 PM

I myself am using Windows 10 for quite some time now and haven't had many issues with it. I don't care about any privacy issues. I think it looks a lot nicer than any Windows so far and I also like the simple design. It's different for everyone when it comes to design and layout. I'm not using any 'mods' or 3rd party software to replace the default Windows programs or features. I am also not using tiles, too used to the start menu.

If there are ads in the start menu (I haven't noticed them) I doubt it's a core part of the OS. If it's a tile - it's an app, and if it's an app it's not really a part of the actual OS, is it?

Talking about start menu, I'm really used to the search feature, it works super fast and I can open any program I want in just second or two.

The main (maybe the only, for me) problems I have are two: automatic updates and tightened security. The first one bugs me because sometimes I am not connected to an infinite-data internet connection and I like to control when I actually download and install the updates. The second one is annoying when I'm modding games. Most (although not all) games' folders have their security tightened, so that you need to confirm every action you do, like deleting or moving files. It gets annoying with those messages ("You need to provide administrator permission to...") with a simple button to confirm that you're an administrator, which is kinda stupid...

I updated to Windows 10 (from Windows 7) mainly because of:

  • the design looks better
  • windows explorer has a better layout and more features
  • the command prompt got some little changes
  • the default windows apps for videos, music and photos (also calculator), they're awesome!

But of course there are issues with Windows 10, I'm not trying to deny it. When it comes to Windows I think you should be using Windows 7, and unless you have a good reason to update, don't really use Windows 10. There are a lot of hate about it (although a bit too much), and it's not just nothing. You should be aware of what your computer is running and what your needs are. I am satisfied with Windows 10.

#17 LDDestroier

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 07:31 PM

My rage is up. Win10 is off my computer, and replaced with FreeDOS. I just got a soundblaster card. Now I just feel tipsy...maybe it's sleep deprivation.

#18 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 09:50 PM

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

View PostSquidDev, on 29 March 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Of course Microsoft is planning something else. But what...

"Universal Windows Platform" apps must be verified by Microsoft (in the same way Android or iOS apps must be). Win32 applications can still run without being verified by Microsoft.

Yes, this is their plan. The end goal is to have the average user installing all software via their store, which 1) provides and income and 2) should help keep malware down.

In practise, I'm not sure how well it'll work. As it stands, store software is subject to limitations that standard desktop software isn't. That will probably change, but companies such as Valve are likely to push against it anyway.

View PostMKlegoman357, on 29 March 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

the default windows apps for videos, music and photos (also calculator), they're awesome!

Oh, they've done some work on Calculator? I'll have to look into that, see whether it's improved back up to its glory days in XP.

Paint's another app which has seriously devolved under later versions of Windows. It's been outright bug-ridden since 7 (didn't try it in Vista), and the UI has taken a big step backwards.

I mean, it's not like I don't have three other applications installed for image manipulation (plus more for viewing), but when it comes to basic pixel art Paint's pretty hard to beat.

Speaking of viewing, I've even had to go ahead and install a different slideshow-capable viewer for images, due to the lack of animating GIF support since XP. Naturally I simply installed XP's viewer.

Each new version of Windows seems to defy the "if it's not broken don't fix it" rule when it comes to interface design and feature support, and 10 even embraces the "freemium" culture I've long looked down on. One can only hold back on updates for so long, as computers don't last forever and new ones come bundled with the latest OS. It's frustrating.

#19 HPWebcamAble

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:06 PM

Wanted to add my two cents...

I installed windows 10 on my new PC, and it works well. Far from perfect, but good enough that I like it.

First, I'd highly advise that you DO NOT upgrade a PC to 10 from a computer that has been used. Too many things can go wrong.
On the other hand, a fresh install (or an update to 10 from a fresh install of 7, 8, or 8.1) rarely, if ever, has issues with the install.

The search (from the start menu) is a bit lacking;
It finds things like Google Chrome and most settings very well, but Minecraft? Feed the Beast? No.
In fact, it can't find files at all really. (MC and FTB aren't officially 'installed' programs)

File explorer works as it should, for me at least.

View PostBomb Bloke, on 29 March 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

Oh, they've done some work on Calculator? I'll have to look into that, see whether it's improved back up to its glory days in XP.

Paint's another app which has seriously devolved under later versions of Windows. It's been outright bug-ridden since 7 (didn't try it in Vista), and the UI has taken a big step backwards.
Yep, calculator has gotten an upgrade. It actually surprised me, the old one worked so.. I didn't see an incentive to change it... I feel like that's not a good thing to immediately think.

Paint? I have no idea, I actually haven't even used it in 10. paint.net is a great, free alternative to the built-in paint and is similar to Photoshop.
Notepad still sucks too, but I use Notepad++ so it doesn't really matter to me.


View PostLDDestroier, on 28 March 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

  • Windows 10 broke the MBR, again. I duel-boot Ubuntu with Windows.
It.. did? Do you mean when you updated, it broke your MBR?
Who needs that dated tech anyway, all the kool kids use GPT

#20 Konlab

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 05:14 AM

View PostSquidDev, on 29 March 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostLDDestroier, on 29 March 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

1. You can disable the ads by removing the tiles with ads, or installing a third-party menu. But ads shouldn't be in a core part of the OS.
2. Of course Microsoft is planning something else. But what...
3. Hopefully, you will never be FORCED to install from the MS store; for both the end-users' and Microsoft's sake.

Disclaimer: Never used Windows 10, I mostly use Ubuntu.
  • Ubuntu has advertising in the dash. You can disable them, but they are the default. In the case of Ubuntu it is to fund an open source project, why Windows has them I don't know.
  • "Universal Windows Platform" apps must be verified by Microsoft (in the same way Android or iOS apps must be). Win32 applications can still run without being verified by Microsoft.
  • However there is an option to disable this check.
Android apps don't need to be veryfied, only if you want to put them on play store.





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