71 replies to this topic

[francogp]

Hi!,
I try to expose this idea in minecraftforum.net but its overcrowded with post, so I will explain it again here.

In survival mode, I think that turtles are overpowered. They are too easy to build and with a little of code you can do things better than BuildCraft Quarrys for example with NO effort.

I suggest:
1) Add some kind of fuel/energy that they consume to work (like coal? water? steam? redstones?).
2) Or you can add limits to distance between turtles and some kind of terminal, so you have to spread a "net" of something (other computers with wifi?) to make them functional in a specific range. That "antenas" could be upgraded with some kind of hardware to extends its reach. If the wifi have 50 block limits... maybe turtles must have something like that to limit its power.
3) Or a machine like a dock station that recharge the turtle batteries when a turtle park on it. That machine can be recharged using coal (and/or water... steam) if you don't want to add other new items to the mod.

Some people complains that they don't want a complex way to use turtles... but there is a simple solution:

a) if you want simple... use creative mode (fuel/energy system should be disabled automatically?).
b) if you want some difficult, use survival (gather resources to sustain that turtles).
c) if you want survival, WITHOUT fuel/energy system, a simple disable option in the config file could solve the problem.

Thanks!

[passinglurker]

the turtles biggest disadvantage is its limited inventory space. if you use a turtle in combination with other mods that add their own ores (say redpower for example it and computercraft go hand in hand practically) you will run out of space when you collect 9 different types of block. meaning by the time you hit diamonds your turtle is dropping all the blocks it mines on the ground. you will find that to fix this you will either have to A. baby sit your turtles or B. devise a more complex mining program(i think if you choose B you darn well deserve something better than a quarry)

so if you ask I would say no a turtle doesn't need fuel consumption for 2 reasons.

1. tech wise its a step above buildcraft
2. a turtle is either more trouble than a quarry or you with the effort you put into it you deserve to have something better than a quarry

the computer craft wiki actually has something to say about turtle fuel you should check it out
http://computercraft...hp?title=Turtle

and finally if you really want to make thing harder on your self you have these options(and this goes for every one in the "NERF EVERTHING!/ee haters" camp)
1.hardcore mode
2.roleplay fuel consumption by throwing things in lava
3.use custom recipes to make the turtle harder to build for yourself
4.wait until the peripheral api is released (soon) and make your own add-on that adds fuel consumption mechanics
5.don't play computercraft

[FuzzyPurp]

IMO turtles are no comparison to how easy buildcraft quarries are, once built. They both require diamonds to build, and management on a quarry is easy. Just plop a chest down and wait. Then move quarry repeat. Quarry size any limit 64x64 max. Yea they need power but how easy it it to run quarries off redstone engines? Turtle fuel would be retarded imo, and just adds another dependancy if fuel form another mod is used. A robot runs on coal? i could see a new slot for redstone consumption,but meh. These things still do not make BC machines obsolete, and not everyone uses BC anyway

[passinglurker]

oh yeah I forgot quarries can run for free. I'll remember that next time some one says "nerf this cause computercraft is easier than buildcraft"

really the only place imposed fuel consumption would matter is in smp so its really an issue to take up with your admin to implement some sort of balance addon/plugin/controversial server rule.

[francogp]

FuzzyPurp, on 01 March 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

... A robot runs on coal? ...

I said "coal" as an example /> . If you can imagine a robot with infinite energy source like 1.3, I can imagine a steampunk-electronic robot style working with coal and water />

[FuzzyPurp]

francogp, on 01 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

FuzzyPurp, on 01 March 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

... A robot runs on coal? ...

I said "coal" as an example /> . If you can imagine a robot with infinite energy source like 1.3, I can imagine a steampunk-electronic robot style working with coal and water />

Well put some coal in one of its slots and code it to dispense 1 every 5 movements or something.. />

[6677]

Coal generators aren't exactly in impossible thing. I also think fuel on turtles would be a nice idea.

[Sebra]

Next time you forbid Turtle levitation, then nonbreaking pick, then whatelse...
Game must be fun, not a burden.
I do not like levitation, but think about a things, you need for normal movement system: jump engine with ability to jump on step, place a block under yourself and dig a block injump; ability to dig not up, down and forward, but at least forward-down; ability to detect blocks, you do not touch directly to see if you descend safely...
Think more!

[passinglurker]

6677 you need to read this again

passinglurker, on 01 March 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

the computer craft wiki actually has something to say about turtle fuel you should check it out
http://computercraft...hp?title=Turtle

and finally if you really want to make thing harder on your self you have these options(and this goes for every one in the "NERF EVERTHING!/ee haters" camp)
1.hardcore mode
2.roleplay fuel consumption by throwing things in lava
3.use custom recipes to make the turtle harder to build for yourself
4.wait until the peripheral api is released (soon) and make your own add-on that adds fuel consumption mechanics
5.don't play computercraft

alot of you nerfers may think this is a good idea but there are more people who see these suggestions as needlessly crippling turtles. you should think of suggestions that expand computercrafts functionality not limit it.

so for example

"hey lets nerf turtles, make them harder to craft, and burn fuel"=FLAMEWAR!

"hey lets add a way to make turtles move faster by adding an inventor slot specifically for burning fuel and that fuel will give the turtle a temporary speed boost (the turtles will go normal speed the rest of the time), and then we can add a new type of turtle the uses ironblocks instead of ingots to make a more fuel efficient turtle meaning he goes normal with out fuel and goes fast for longer with fuel"=good idea

[Liraal]

passinglurker, on 01 March 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

"hey lets add a way to make turtles move faster by adding an inventor slot specifically for burning fuel and that fuel will give the turtle a temporary speed boost (the turtles will go normal speed the rest of the time), and then we can add a new type of turtle the uses ironblocks instead of ingots to make a more fuel efficient turtle meaning he goes normal with out fuel and goes fast for longer with fuel"=good idea

I agree with that, also, maybe add a turtle that uses iron pick but it loses durability and has to be replaced (not that i cant get a few diamonds, but I have a disposable minefield in mind /> )

[Casper7526]

The original plan was to make the pick degrade, not sure if that will ever be implemented now at this point or not />

[Liraal]

it's not a good plan, now the turtles are more or less equals of BC quarries, and making the pick degrade would break that balance.

[passinglurker]

i agree breakable diamond pick mining turtle=no
breakable iron pick mining turtle=sure

[Shade25]

Don't really want to get involved in the hot topic, though I also personally do not agree with fuel consumption or other means of trying to nerf turtles.

But to the original poster, it should be fairly simple to write a program as FuzzyPurp said that will work to limit similar to fuel.

Could just have a small API which has a "checkFuel()" function, when run it checks if there is any items in a specific slot (9 lets say), and if so then returns true, if not then false, and have any movement api code make a check to that to see if it has fuel, if it does then throw some away after so much movement if not then don't move.

Could also have the API function handle the 'fuel use', since there is no api to check which block id's are in the inventory it could use 'anything' as fuel so its limited by your own self-restraint, but would allow you to emulate 'fuel use' for yourself at least.

[petrus4]

If you're going to do this, I would request that it is toggle-able, so that people who don't want the requirement of a fuel source can turn it off. BuildCraft's engines nearly destroyed that mod for me. They don't add any real functionality in positive terms, and all they do is reduce the flexibility of the pipes, by limiting where you can put them, and also wasting fuel on something which didn't previously need it.

Some people prefer hamstringing themselves and giving themselves handicaps for some reason, but I prefer freedom. Without limitations, I can often create far larger and more details mechanisms than I would be able to, if every single machine or device had an arbitrary fuel requirement.

Please open your mind. You might say that it is unrealistic, but as far as I am concerned, realism is not always a positive thing. I don't mind the idea of this being added in such a way that it can be turned off, so that you can have it if you want, but I don't need to; but adding it in such a way that I would be forced to live with it, would severely reduce my enjoyment of this mod.

I will also admit that in more general terms, I really wish multiplayer did not exist for Minecraft. I never use it, and I'm inclined to believe that Notch wouldn't be anywhere near as worried about "balance," as he is, if it wasn't for SMP. People ended up losing waterladders for no appreciable reason that I could see, and as soon as the redstone obsidian bug was mentioned, Notch immediately mentioned that it would have to be patched for SMP "balance," as well. Multiplayer "balance," was the single main thing which destroyed World of Warcraft. It was originally a single player game, and a lot of the class and spec combinations that people used to really enjoy in single player, were destroyed because of the demand for homogenised classes for the Arena.

So please, SMP players; do not just think solely of yourselves. There are other people who play this game, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't wreck it for us.

[passinglurker]

I think even giving fuel consumption as a dev endorsed option is a bad idea. those that are against fuel will be upset because. now that there is a harder way their creations are no longer considered "legit" and those for fuel will not be satisfied and start demanding more nerf's like the ability to turn off non-breaking picks, turn off levitation, and ultimately make these limitations mandatory.

we can go back and forth all day about quarries but the reality is true balance is impossible the best and developer can hope for is making it hard to guess which is truly better which is the point we are at now

the answer is simple if you want fuel
CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

[FuzzyPurp]

passinglurker, on 04 March 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I think even giving fuel consumption as a dev endorsed option is a bad idea. those that are against fuel will be upset because. now that there is a harder way their creations are no longer considered "legit" and those for fuel will not be satisfied and start demanding more nerf's like the ability to turn off non-breaking picks, turn off levitation, and ultimately make these limitations mandatory.

we can go back and forth all day about quarries but the reality is true balance is impossible the best and developer can hope for is making it hard to guess which is truly better which is the point we are at now

the answer is simple if you want fuel
CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

I concur!

[francogp]

petrus4, on 04 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Please open your mind. You might say that it is unrealistic, but as far as I am concerned, realism is not always a positive thing.
...
So please, SMP players; do not just think solely of yourselves. There are other people who play this game, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't wreck it for us.

passinglurker, on 04 March 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

...
if you want fuel CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

I am open-minded, that's why I propose optional ideas. I don't want something realistic... I never said that (if you read, I propose coal/steam energy source for a ROBOT ¬¬). I don't want "compatibility" with other mods, I mention buildcraft as an example the of "complexity" that I want. I need something more according to the SURVIVAL GAME MODE (collect, craft....). A little bit more OPTIONAL "difficult". I don't think "solely of my own", that's why I said that fuel SHOULD be optional, for the people who want it. I don't want to "wreck the mod"... I want more complexity for people who want play more "dificult?" survival server, as an OPTIONAL FEATURE. I can code it in the OS, but it is not as efficient (CPU) as if it is coded IN the mod.

Excuse the caps, but I want to clear those points, because a lot of people here (as in the minecraft forum) do not understand my original post.

PD: @petrus4 You are loosing/missing a LOT OF FUN for not playing it in multiplayer mode!, for example, rol servers are the best!

[passinglurker]

BEGIN RANT

I believe I said it in my last post that even the(dev endorsed) OPTION of requiring fuel to allow the turtle to function is a BAD IDEA. you may be satisfied but others won't and they'll see it as an opening to propose their own nerfs. because either A. they are to lazy to wait for the 1.31 update that will implement the peripheral api (cc equivalent to buildcraft and industrial craft addons) and IMPLEMENT IT THEM SELVES. B. cause they are griefers and trolls that want ruin the mod or C. they have been deceived by said griefers and trolls.

I told how to make things challenging and that to take up the idea with your server cause that's the only place where any one would care about this idea(griefers hang out in servers after all)

really the peripheral api is hopefully as far as the dev's will go toward implementation your "optional fuel" by giving you the option to learn java and do it your self.

and as to your complexity comments
1. have you ever looked at redstone computers? complex enough for ya?
2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods
4. if you ever take college level programming classes the professor will likely inform you that computer programs are the most complex things man has ever devised and since this is a mod about computer programs maybe complex isn't the word you were looking for.

END RANT

now sorry for the strong language you do have the right to defend your self but. you have proposed your idea, and it has been rejected, and now you need to let it die. but please continue to come up with other ideas your enthusiasm for this mod is still encouraged.

[francogp]

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods
4. if you ever take college level programming classes the professor will likely inform you that computer programs are the most complex things man has ever devised and since this is a mod about computer programs maybe complex isn't the word you were looking for.

I said (two or three times in the thread) that I point buildcraft as an EXAMPLE of the "complexity" that I want in ComputerCraft turtles. I'm not fan of builcraft... replace that word with Industrialcraft if you want (I like that mod more). Please, stop telling me "If you love X mod, got and play X... and don't play ComputerCraft". I want to play ComputerCraft, that's why I'm here in this forum, proposing ideas, and not in BuildCraft forum proposing ideas for them.

PD: I don't understand your 4th point
PD 2: I know that I have to "let die" the idea.. I keep writing in this thread, just because people write in it.