71 replies to this topic

[passinglurker]

your suggestions are appreciated. my points (repeated here for clarity) are as follows

1.not all mods should(or can) be of the same SCALE as the big 3 industrial mods(buildcraft, redpower, industrialcraft)

2.any fuel (even optional) endorsed by dan200 in the form of including the option in the mod will ultimately make both sides of the debate unhappy.

3.there are other less controversial ways to increase how challenging the game is for yourself and for those playing with you in multiplayer

4.when 1.31 comes out you can learn java and mod computercraft to actually make real fuel consuming turtles and if it actually becomes popular enough then maybe it might get integrated into computercraft officially (an example success story is the pistons mod for minecraft, an example fail story is advanced machines for industrial craft)

if you need me to clarify further feel free to ask I'll try to hold back my tendency to rant.

I look forward to your NEXT idea

EDIT: didn't see your second "PD"-thing i'll take that as an attempt to bury the hatchet so just ignore this post or something

[francogp]

Thanks! />

[petrus4]

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods

No argument there. I'm getting tired of the giant "suite," mods, myself. Buildcraft was also less complex before SpaceToad added engines as mentioned, and IMHO it should have stayed that way.

[petrus4]

I apologise, Franco. If fuel is added, but can be toggled off, then I have no objection to anyone having it who wants it. It will, however, remain off while I am using Turtles myself.

[Cloudy]

I, personally, like that turtles don't have fuel. However, I don't see the issue in there being an option for fuel.

The original "plan" was to have the pickaxe breaking when used enough times - however, dan forgot to implement that />

I personally think turtles are slow enough to not be OP in comparison to mods like BC and IC.

[TheVarmari]

Oh god just stop it.
Yes, I want it to be added as an OPTION. Imagine us REAL CODERS coding the pain out of our ass coding a thing that will make the turtle refuel everytime it runs low. Oh wait, inserting things into the turtle automatically is impossible?
See?
If you would make an automatic turtle, go on.
Then if this gets added, you have to go to the digging site and refuel it.

Even BuildCraft would be better for digging for resources!
It has _unlimited_ space (can go to chests) where turtles have 9 SLOTS.
It can run with REDSTONE POWER. If this gets added, it is still better.

Now, think.
You make a turtle that digs deep undergound then comes to specific coords to drop the loop.
You make an ARMY of these.
Woops, one ran out of fuel.
Woops, two ran out of fuel.
Woops, my system got messed up.
Woops, that ran out of coal.
I refueled that one!
Oh dangit, that ran out of coal and it messed up the system. Now the turtles are dancing!
I'll go and refuel that one!
Oh wait, it still isn't fixed.
Oh god, now that ran out of fuel.
I NEED MORE COAL. DIG ME MORE COAL, TURTLES- oh wait....

[passinglurker]

the buildcraft argument actually got cleared(turtle fuel= turtle underpowered vs. quarry) a while ago.

but more importantly we should remember not to compare mods against each other because that leads to dependency on the mods your comparing yourself against.

the big reason I am so adamant against nerfs is that this isn't a big suite mod like buildcraft or industrial craft or redpower the only time we should consider nerfs and buffs is when we are comparing computercraft against its self or minecraft, and computer craft isn't big enough to need nerfing right now IMO

as for fuel as you pointed out fuel is bad for gameplay reasons. what if when the turtle runs out of fuel its in the middle of a lake of lava? or in mid air(layer 192 would be the perfect place for this to happen)? or is digging like a mole? the very concept of "turtle needs fuel to move" is either wrong or not worth the effort to implement

so how about this as a compromise (i have said something like this before)
turtles don't need fuel to move they need fuel to move faster. basically let turtles keep their current function and speed. then add a new item called the "turbo module" and this item will be used to craft another new item called the "turbo turtle" the "turbo turtle" will have the ability to pull flammable items from its inventory and burn them for a speed boost when instructed to do so.

so how does that sound? turtle made structures are still "legit" and logistics heads get to play with coal and supply chains. looks like a win win for every one

EDIT:heck cut the turbo module and just combine a turtle with a powered minecart to make a "turbo turtle" same result for half the effort

[francogp]

TheVarmari, on 05 March 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Oh god just stop it.
Yes, I want it to be added as an OPTION. Imagine us REAL CODERS coding the pain out of our ass coding a thing that will make the turtle refuel everytime it runs low. Oh wait, inserting things into the turtle automatically is impossible?
See?
If you would make an automatic turtle, go on.
Then if this gets added, you have to go to the digging site and refuel it.

Even BuildCraft would be better for digging for resources!
It has _unlimited_ space (can go to chests) where turtles have 9 SLOTS.
It can run with REDSTONE POWER. If this gets added, it is still better.

Now, think.
You make a turtle that digs deep undergound then comes to specific coords to drop the loop.
You make an ARMY of these.
Woops, one ran out of fuel.
Woops, two ran out of fuel.
Woops, my system got messed up.
Woops, that ran out of coal.
I refueled that one!
Oh dangit, that ran out of coal and it messed up the system. Now the turtles are dancing!
I'll go and refuel that one!
Oh wait, it still isn't fixed.
Oh god, now that ran out of fuel.
I NEED MORE COAL. DIG ME MORE COAL, TURTLES- oh wait....

Thats why I propose a dock station, so they (turtles) can refuel automatically (with some lines of code) when they have low battery . So, You only have to refuel the dock station />

[passinglurker]

hey what happened to letting your old idea die? if your sincere thats means you'll stop defending it you should have told him he was late to the party and your open to ways the idea can be improved (so close to ranting right now)

[Liraal]

passinglurker's points are valid. refueling stations would kill the turtles, at least for me. Right now i can code a turtle to go to for example 50000 50000 and it will eventually get there. But if fuel ever gets implemented, it'll be chained to the station and thus unable to explore. Turtles are slow and have limited cargo capacity and that's limiting enough. Every other mod you can mine for free after some playing (e.g. quarry run of redstone engines, miner powered by solars, redpower quarry (if it gets implemented)). That being the point, I can see no reason for nerfing the turtles.

[francogp]

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

hey what happened to letting your old idea die? if your sincere thats means you'll stop defending it you should have told him he was late to the party and your open to ways the idea can be improved (so close to ranting right now)

I said before that I keep writing on this thread because people keep writing in it. The post will die when nobody write in it... its a fact. Are you afraid that people continue to improve the idea to make it happend? if the idea is dead and nobody want this... that will never happend, so dont be afraid of sharing words

[passinglurker]

I have nothing against trying to improve the idea (I have proposed a way for there to be fuel in computer craft twice and you have never said a word about it) but what you are doing is that you are appearing to prop up the idea of the original post (that idea is as i understand it "add a config option to make turtles need fuel to move") and just trying to get the last word in next time some one writes in this thread ask for compromises to what the poster sees is wrong with your idea. that is how an idea gets improved and implemented. but so far this thread is on a train with a one way ticket to flamewar-ville(IT SHOULD BE NOTED THIS NOT MEANT TO BE THREAT TO START A FLAMEWAR) because you are you are appearing to be inflexible.

P.S. most of the people that keep writing don't seem to like fuel

[Liraal]

It's 8:2 people against fuel (if i counted right). How about a pool to determine which option is more popular?

[francogp]

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I have nothing against trying to improve the idea (I have proposed a way for there to be fuel in computer craft twice and you have never said a word about it) but what you are doing is that you are appearing to prop up the idea of the original post (that idea is as i understand it "add a config option to make turtles need fuel to move") and just trying to get the last word in next time some one writes in this thread ask for compromises to what the poster sees is wrong with your idea. that is how an idea gets improved and implemented. but so far this thread is on a train with a one way ticket to flamewar-ville(IT SHOULD BE NOTED THIS NOT MEANT TO BE THREAT TO START A FLAMEWAR) because you are you are appearing to be inflexible.

P.S. most of the people that keep writing don't seem to like fuel

I agree with you, but all the reply that I post here was for calrify my original post, with no intentions to offend or make a flameware thread.

[passinglurker]

but if the idea is dead there is no point clarifying it

so now that that is out of the way lets brain storm how fuel can be used to IMPROVE computercraft (making it harder is not an improvement it never is never will be)

this hasn't been the first time some one said "turtles need fuel" with out thinking all the way through and it won't be the last so lets come up with an idea that's good enough that no one feels inclined to suggest a bad fuel idea ever again (assuming they search the forums for previously proposed ideas first)

[Bard]

I'm not really sure, but I get the impression that everyone here thinks of the "fuel idea" as just a way to nerf turtles to achieve some sort of mystical power balance.
Am I the only one that can see the potential for new and potentially fun mechanics springing from not-infinite/allpowerful turtles? (It's not a rethoric question, I honestly want to know)

Recharge stations, modem-like "attachments" that can wirelessly receive power, power antennas, different tiers of turtles with different fuel capacity/consumption/etc
Turtle upgrades (just walk, vertical climbing, hovering, various movement and mining speeds, huge-inventory "transport" turtles, scanner modules to find ores, "boat on the head" modlues to brin the player around, etc)

I see the point "well there's addons now, you can just code it", but there's no point in making a mod that actually REMOVES "power" from an mod, noone will use it.

The way I see it, the best (imo ofcourse) route would be to leave the actual turtle in (infinite fuel, hovering and all) as a basic all-around and add "advanced" turtles later that have improved and specialized features (based on crafting recipe or "mod slots" for examples) but require more energy to run (along with a non-annoying energy system, such as long duration batteries with recharge station for basic models up to medium-long range wifi transmission for example for advanced models)
Those "advanced turtles" would maybe able to only run, not fly but they'd be faster, or transport more stuff but be unable to mine, or again mine really fast and hover but require a power source nearby, or have no inventory and ability to mine but be able to transport people, etc..

I could make more examples and expand on the idea trying to balance it, but it's not really the point at the moment, just throwing food for thougth out there to see what everyone else thinks.

That said, I think that even if it's pretty clearn I'm in favor of fuel and stuff on the turtles, if the choice was mine I wouldn't do it now, but only way down the road in the addon development. />

[passinglurker]

I've proposed a compromise similar to this (twice) I would say the basic idea that all these ideas have in common are as follows

keep turtles the way they are add turtle types that can in exchange for consuming resources provide superior performance

a simple way to do this would be something like. POWERED MINECART + (prefix)TURTLE = (prefix)TURBO TURTLE

I've described the turbo turtle in a previous post so read that for details.

one thing to keep in mind is IMO I don't think giving turtles the brains to just run back and recharge as a simple LUA statement fits in with the mod the next thing people will want is the ability to hunt diamonds with a single line of code(and you can use your imagination after that)

adding different advanced turtle functions is interesting but i think there should always be a slower freebie way to do things especially since this mod caters to more than just survivalists (survivalist = someone who would install an addon that kills functionality)

perhaps if there is a function or level of performance that requires fuel a turtle can be made to perform at that level without fuel if it takes a hit somewhere else (for example faster speed but it can't levitate without being next to a block)

[francogp]

I like both ideas (@Bard @passinglurker)

[FuzzyPurp]

Ok adding a fuel option to turtles based on a way another mod tries to balance their mod, is fail. CC wasnt made to be balanced, it was made to have fun with. You want turtles to have fuel yet computers run with no electricity, off no EU or MJ. And no one has yet showed me how quarries or less OP'd then a turtle. Am i the only one who DOESN'T use turtles for mining, because im my opinion, turtle mining sucks compared to quarries, or even ic2 miners. Oh yea, try leaving a chunk with a turtle mining, i place a quarry, with a chunk loader and go to the end of the world and my quarry still runs..

[passinglurker]

I'll start by saying that I will be perfectly happy with and prefer a fuel free CC(I'm not going soft)

most of what you said(especially the parts about not comparing CC to other mods) I've already said multiple times. the reason I'm keeping this thread going is cause this isn't going to be the last time some one says "turtles op they need fuel". so instead of flamewaring them out of existence we can instead calmly say "its been discussed extensively before and we came up with a better idea than you and even that wasn't good enough this thread is now locked" other wise this issue will keep coming up like the lightning rod idea for IC2 every time CC gets attention and picks up new users. And if it does get implemented at least the damage will be minimized(at least compared to what would happen if dan200 listened to someones call for mandatory fuel)