71 replies to this topic

[J0P5]

perhaps it's an idea to only enable this if BC or IC2 or Redpower is installed?

Give the turtles a battery and let them fuel on those power sources?

[passinglurker]

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

[Liraal]

I have an idea that may solve two problems at once. How about making a peripheral that uses fuel-powered free-moving turtles along with normal CC turtles?

[passinglurker]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it could you be a little more detailed?

[Liraal]

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

[J0P5]

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

not mandatory, optional.

lot's of mods have optional settings. It'd be up to the player (singleplayer) or server (smp) to choose to do this or not.
Saying they depend on other mods updating is true, but if you look at technic / tekkit... it might be an idea.

However tbh, I kinda like them the way they are as of right now; IMO it's not really overpowered as there are a lot of mods out there that make mining a lot easier then this. Server-wise you don't even have that much of an issue, too many people don't know / don't want to know how to work with turtles and stuff, so it wouldn't really ruin the economy (in the server).

[passinglurker]

Liraal, on 07 March 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

I proposed a programmable mob in the fighting turtle thread the big problem is mobs can be pushed which can throw off the turtle in order to fix this you either need to make the mobs code way more complex or the mob way more magical and autonomous it would seem its not worth the effort compared to the alternatives.

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

not mandatory, optional.

if you ask me a switch that turns mandatory fuel on and off is the same as mandating turtles consume fuel. there would be for lack of a better word "political" consequences should dan200 add a mandatory fuel option I've detailed this multiple times before and I'm getting sick of repeating myself so read my old posts.

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

lot's of mods have optional settings. It'd be up to the player (singleplayer) or server (smp) to choose to do this or not.
Saying they depend on other mods updating is true, but if you look at technic / tekkit... it might be an idea.

first off allot of people hate technic dan200 seems friendly enough to technic but you probably shouldn't use them as shining examples

second allot of these "optional settings" take the form of addons like teleport pipes for BC or compact solars and advanced machines for IC2 (try going into the IC2 forum and suggest that they integrate the advanced machines addon into the mod and just make it so you can turn them off/on in config. you probably won't get a positive response)

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

However tbh, I kinda like them the way they are as of right now; IMO it's not really overpowered as there are a lot of mods out there that make mining a lot easier then this. Server-wise you don't even have that much of an issue, too many people don't know / don't want to know how to work with turtles and stuff, so it wouldn't really ruin the economy (in the server).

what does tbh mean? I agree I would prefer if CC stayed fuel free I'm simply trying to devise the best way for fuel to work in CC so that we can say even the best idea won't work.

[Bard]

Considering the effort needed to make a turtle work (especially for someone that doesn't know LUA already), it wouldn't feel overpowered if it ate cobble and dumped diamonds />
Anyway as for now they're far from overpowered, that's why I was suggesting "better specialist turtles" and as I see it, fuel would be just another game mechanic added that you'd need to care about only if you want to dabble in the "advanced turtles" part.
And yes, it would work great also as an addon/perhiperal.

[Sebra]

If you want lua programmed mob free of grid, do not name it turtle.
Let it be "Rabbit" or other name. Turtle as moving block works good.

[Liraal]

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Liraal, on 07 March 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

I proposed a programmable mob in the fighting turtle thread the big problem is mobs can be pushed which can throw off the turtle in order to fix this you either need to make the mobs code way more complex or the mob way more magical and autonomous it would seem its not worth the effort compared to the alternatives.

And if i remember, it was me who pointed the difficulties /> But I still think it's a good idea for a peripheral.

Sebra, on 08 March 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

If you want lua programmed mob free of grid, do not name it turtle.
Let it be "Rabbit" or other name. Turtle as moving block works good.

I never said that it has to be named turtle, the name was just a simile to make imagining it easier.

And here's a new idea! Crafting Turtle and Furnace Turtle. Guess what these'd do.

[Sebra]

I guess these'd be rejected />
"To be able to work with block" is not "to be such block".

[pcmaster160]

There is an issue (coding wise) with every idea proposed.
I think there is balance with turtles, but not in the sense that any other mods use.
With turtles the challenge is creating the program for it. Weather it's to mine then deposit items then mine more or to cut down trees. Turtles are supplied with a very basic api, there is no way to have them automatically go back and deposit items then mine some more. It has to be coded by you. And that time effort needs some reward so that reward is riches, limitless diamonds, a great quarrying program. But there will (just about) always be bugs, things for you to fix, make better or tweak and that in a sense is the balance that turtles use. They are not physically limited (like quarries are to your bc power or pickaxes are with durability) but they are limited by what you create for them.

And that is my argument, now when you use others' code then that is your choice, its like using someone elses mob trap design, copying a design takes little/no time and is easy to get huge amounts of drops. But building that mob trap yourself takes days (real life days) of trial and error and that is the same process used to code a turtle (if not making turtle programs are harder since it has more possible bugs).

[PatriotBob]

Simply put... ATM turtles are way over powered for their rediculously cheap build cost. I can do more with a turtle than I ever could with a quarry with the same maintenance or less.
But it costs far leas in diamonds to build...
Or take anything to up keep...
And has a relatively unlimited quarry size...

The only real "cost" is the program.
But copypasta is hard amirite?

Anyone saying they're on par with quarries is either grossly uninformed or doesn't know how to program their way out of a do loop.

[Liraal]

Your message is so complex that i have to reply in points:

1)how about having only 9 slots for items? a quarry can be linked to a hundred of chests and still work.
2)you cannot really mine a really big area with turtles, cause sooner or later they get to unloaded chunks
3)copypasting=/give command, at least as far as CC is concerned - you do it if you don't want this particular thing to be a challenge
4)have you read about the concept of mod balancing only against itself?
5)you can mine with RP block breaker, it runs for free.
6)why do you want to limit yourself? (this one i can't find an answer for)
7)it is rude to insult people simply for disagreeing with you.
8)it is dan's call to make

sorry if i seem pushy, but i am really against nerfing turtles and i fail to even find reasons to do so. If you don't like them, modify their recipe or don't use them at all, but do not push your (rare) view on all others.

Well, that was my view of the issue.

[PatriotBob]

Like wise I will respond in points. />

1) turtle.drop() + obsidian pipe == WIN
2) Same problem exists with quarries, but then again we have chunk loader blocks for that.
3) My point is, once written it can be redeployed on any map and any time. Even w/o copy paste. Once I've written it, I will do it 2x as fast the next time. And likely better. All with little effort. If you on the same server, you can drop 100's of them and run around with a floppy disk for 20 min...
4) Yes, yes I have. They problem with that concept is when you mod is rarely ran by it self. You should consider how the player base is using the mod and adjust accordingly. Computer Craft integrates well with Redpower, but it's not required. Why not give us the same options to use EUs from IC2? (as and example)
5) Yes I agree the RP block break is also ridiculous. But that doesn't exactly mean we all should use that as an excuse to leave things completely unbalanced.
6) I don't think it would limit me at all. I don't complain that needing rare diamonds for my diamond pick ax is "limiting", I say your balancing the cost with the gain. Computers I always thought were stupid cheap to build, but the couldn't do anything more that orchestrate what you could already accomplish, but more automated. But turtles allow for serious world modification with little cost. (3 diamonds for the miner)
7) You admittedly come across as pushy. I can be a bit harsh when people say spending three diamonds and 20 min at text editor compares with the cost of a quarry which requires much more resources to build and the power to maintain it, which isn't always the easiest task. It's just plain wrong.
8) Indeed it is. But this here be the suggestions and ideas section... thus we're "passionately" discussing the validity of this concept.

If you want to tell me that this mod is not intended, nor will ever attempt to be balanced along side other widely used mods. (RedPower, IC2, BC, etc) Then great. End of discussion. My arguments are rendered null and void. I will happily crawl back from wince I came and not speak of giving turtles some manner of maintenance cost.

But if Dan, it his call to make after all, is wanting to have some manner of cost:gain ratio similar to BC's quarry (block breaker's stupid, yes) then it needs some tweaking. Picks that break, turtle's need to dock at a charging peripheral to recharge, something.

That's my view of the issue. />

[Liraal]

Facing a cultural opponent is an exciting thing indeed. />

But I have one more idea: if detected BC, the recipe should change into one with a diamond casing (for example). This should suit about every side of this argument (or maybe not those, who want their turtles to burn coal /> )

How about that?

[PatriotBob]

Indeed. />

Something would probably work. Although I'd me more interested in seeing the "mining" rate of turtles reduced to on par or slightly slower that when you mine. And add some manner of upkeep to the turtle to keep them running. Even if it was just that after so long the moved to a crawl until recharged.

I really like turtles, but I'd love to see they're effectiveness as a single unit reduced so that the way we do large scale projects, like a quarry would be to involve many turtles. So the build cost wouldn't need adjusting because like 6-7 turtles would be as good as a quarry, and so the expense of each would be about the same. That would make the "cost" involved with programming a little more..

But I'd still like to see some manner of power requirement. Even if the never stopped truly working, quantum ionizing engine and all, but by "recharging" them you kept them moving at max speed, which would be slower than I could do alone... but when there 6 of them... it's oh so tasty.

And I would love to write the software required for designation workloads across all turtles while managing their recharge cycles and drop off location. Making turtle small cogs in a large machine. So then you can have turtle mining materials to make turtles, turtles deploying turtles, etc... etc...

But I guess that's more complex that just conditionally changing the recipe... />

[JoneK]

francogp


Is right!

And yes this is an SMP issue.. For SMP players and for Admins who want to add ComputerCraft for their players..

Some ppl in this thread are saying..

Oh my GOD My turtle can run out of POWER and drop to where ever.. or I CAN make my Turtle go to 5000x5000 or even 50000 x 50000

It will not go there unless the are is in memory I doubt that CC keeps turtle occupied chunks in memory.

And learn to code your turtle so It would return home to get power. NOT COAL! Using coal is stupid!

Turtle IN SMP world should take some model from Vacuum Cleaning Robots.

1. A docking Station
2. A CC power system to witch you can convert IC2 or BC power (Cc doesn't actually have to have any power blocks except the docking station (plugin block that allows you to run your computers + power your turtles.
3. A consumption rate that can be changed from 0 to 100% over tic
4. I belive this is allready an addon but "A block that enables interaction with the power station so you can load it with batteries and so it can interact with other storage stuff"


And also minecraft IS about micro managing stuff.. At least SMP should be.. So no one person could do stuff alone.. To Force co-op gaming..


And finally this is a Request from SMP admins who would like to add this feature to He's/Hears server.

[J0P5]

I think making turtles require a form of power has no use. For the simple reason that if you make it require something (for instance coal), you can just make another turtle for gathering and dropping coal, give the other turtles a line to pick the coal up and you are done.

It's still fully automated, requires no (extra) personal effort, so it doesn't really change anything.


Turtles are always going to be able to provide for themselves in a way, making them require energy redundant.

[Teraminer]

About the pick that brakes thing, I think that it could use a wood/diamond drill that does NOT brake but brakes the blocks each pick does (wood pick only coble and coal and so on..)