77 replies to this topic

[Leo Verto]

Hehe, I'd use satellites to take out my enemies communcation arrays or to replace them with my own ones.

[diegodan1893]

KillaVanilla: I like your idea, it makes the peripheral more realistic and less overpowered. As the height limit is 255, the satellite can't "move" it but we can save its coordinates in a file and change them in every movement. In order to launch the satellite, you need a controller where you set the coords of the satellite x and z (to work with GPS Api like in ComputerCraft and not real Minecraft coords), and then launch it. In the controller you can move it by making a path (for example: two blocks left and one up) and it will say the fuel cost and the time it will take to move.

The satellite won't be able to run any program, it only acts as a repeater. In the antenna you set a channel and in another computer you need the same channel so they can comunicate. If you want private messages in a server, encrypt them. But if the satellite receives a message like "gps locate" or something like that, it will return its coords. As current GPS API in vanilla CC work with rednet, we will need to make a new GPS API for this peripheral.

TheArchitect, on 01 February 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

If anyone ever implements network mapped routing, then you need nothing more than a wireless turtle to act as a rednet relay satellite.

I don't know what you meant.


I'll create a GitHub repo and a new topic in the peripherals forum, but I need a name. Maybe RedSat, like in this topic name? Leave suggestions.

EDIT: I forget to say that you will need to wait some days before I make the topic because I need to get all ready and make basic functionality before start.

[digipenguin]

there are already ways of doing this (although some may consider it cheating to have "linked" floppy disks which reference the same folder), though it is only possible with inventory editing

[diegodan1893]

digipenguin, on 02 February 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

there are already ways of doing this (although some may consider it cheating to have "linked" floppy disks which reference the same folder), though it is only possible with inventory editing

Yes, that is cheating, and you can't use it to GPS locate computers and turtles.

[KillaVanilla]

diegodan1893, on 02 February 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

KillaVanilla: I like your idea, it makes the peripheral more realistic and less overpowered. As the height limit is 255, the satellite can't "move" it but we can save its coordinates in a file and change them in every movement. In order to launch the satellite, you need a controller where you set the coords of the satellite x and z (to work with GPS Api like in ComputerCraft and not real Minecraft coords), and then launch it. In the controller you can move it by making a path (for example: two blocks left and one up) and it will say the fuel cost and the time it will take to move.

The satellite won't be able to run any program, it only acts as a repeater. In the antenna you set a channel and in another computer you need the same channel so they can comunicate. If you want private messages in a server, encrypt them. But if the satellite receives a message like "gps locate" or something like that, it will return its coords. As current GPS API in vanilla CC work with rednet, we will need to make a new GPS API for this peripheral.
-snip-

Okay, quick disclaimer: I have no idea how Minecraft or ComputerCraft work on the java side, and I only know how classes work from C++.
1. Yeah, that's similar to what I had in mind, but why not just use the "normal" Minecraft coordinates while manually setting Y? There's nothing in CC that needs to know the exact world XYZ coordinates of a computer.

2. Wait, so *just* repeats rednet messages and responds to GPS queries? Why not just emulate a terminal while discarding all attempts to write to screen? That's the only way I can see positioning and stationkeeping working as I envisioned it, and would make the peripheral fun to use. If you need to send a program up, simply provide a floppy disk with a startup file in it. We could even use this base to branch out into a whole "unmanned space exploration" mod or something.
However, it's your mod; don't listen to me if you don't want to.

[TheArchitect]

diegodan1893, on 02 February 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

TheArchitect, on 01 February 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

If anyone ever implements network mapped routing, then you need nothing more than a wireless turtle to act as a rednet relay satellite.

I don't know what you meant.

What I was thinking of was a program for computers/turtles to act as a rednet relay - in other words, to perform network mapping and organised routing, much like real life routers do. You give them data and a destination, and they'll find the way to get it there.

It's not very different in CC. Router computers would poll the network-enabled computers within reach (including other router computers) to get an idea of the local network topology and generate routing tables accordingly. When you give them a destination (a computer ID you want to send data to), they would poll all known and connected network nodes to find the destination CC ID and, if it exists and is listening to network packets, to relay the data through the shortest path available.

Once you have that program, where you just send your data to the nearest network node and let it reach its destination from there, it's not a stretch at all if one of those nodes, instead of being a computer sitting on the roof of a building, was a turtle hovering at y=255. Being a turtle only for the ease of sending it up. This would be your relay satellite, no additional content added to the mod.

[Skullblade]

what if the Redsatellites get sent up with a code on a disk drive named as startup and when the satellite reaches the desired altitude it stops and the only program it will run is the startup program but it will have a full functionality of computers other then displaying to screen and redstone. You could use something like nsh to control the satellite from the ground and install programs though a rednet file sending program. It would allow creativity in how the satellite are programmed. You could even use them as a external file host and have it only send the files if you provide the correct password

Hope this makes sense as this idea is one of the best i have seen in the suggestions area in a long time

[immibis]

diegodan1893, on 01 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Lets make a peripheral! After reading all posts, I have some ideas:

<snip>

It won't work with rednet network and it will be based on chanels.

Is there a reason to make it unlike rednet? I don't know if peripherals can send and receive rednet messages currently (it's not part of the peripheral API, though, so it's unsupported by dan200 and Cloudy).

diegodan1893, on 01 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

• It will be slow, it will take time to send messages (a second for example).

Meaning you can only send one message per second (emulating low bandwidth), or you can send messages as fast as you like but they all take a second to get there (emulating speed-of-light delay)?

diegodan1893, on 01 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

• You will still need a chunk loader for the sender and the reciver, but we can make parabolics to be chunkloaders.

No. No more chunkloaders that aren't dedicated as chunkloaders. Do you even know how many servers ban quarries because they load chunks? If people want a chunkloader they can get a chunkloader.

KillaVanilla, on 01 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Oooo, idea! What if, in addition to controlling whatever services the satellite provided (GPS, etc.), it also controlled manuevering / stablilization? Then, if the computer crashes or returns to shell, then the satellite comes tumbling down to the ground...possibly on your property. This would also allow the satellite to move around within a pre-defined fuel limit (think turtles, but no mining/item manipulation/refueling).

Okay, a bit more explanation for my sub-idea:

When initally launching your satellite, it's "height" is set to 520 (or so).
Every day, your satellite has a chance of lowering itself on its own.
Every 5 days, the satellite lowers itself on its own if it has not already done so within the last 5 days (this should probably be configurable)
If your satellite's height drops below 500, it re-enters the atmosphere and hits a random spot in the 10 chunks surrounding where it "was" (If you didn't move the satellite at all, this would be the launch site). When it hits the ground, it causes a small explosion (think IC2's ITNT, but slightly bigger and less cubical).
To prevent people from simply moving up and up and up, all altitude change operations take 2-3 fuel (dependent on the time of day) and only take effect the next day. This does not apply to moving left, right, forward, or backwards.
The satellite only starts with 100 or so fuel (again, this should probably be configurable).
Satellites that "collide" (get within 5 or so blocks from each other) tumble out of orbit. Yes, both the collider and the collidee. Alternatively, they could just explode in orbit, showering the ground with small fragments. (Think what happens when a whole satellite tumbles out of orbit, but with smaller explosions, and there are more of them.)

Is the fuel thing really necessary?
Satellites could just have a "satellite.boost()" function they have to call every now and then to show they're not frozen, and a "satellite.deorbit()" function if you want to bring them down immediately.
I probably wouldn't have a reason to move my satellites sideways, but I wouldn't mind the option being there.

In order to de-orbit satellites that are unresponsive but still calling satellite.boost(), perhaps the satellite BIOS could deorbit the satellite when it receives a specific message, but only if the sender is within a few blocks horizontally of the satellite - so you can't deorbit random satellites, you'd have to control the launch site.

[immibis]

Skullblade, on 02 February 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

what if the Redsatellites get sent up with a code on a disk drive named as startup and when the satellite reaches the desired altitude it stops and the only program it will run is the startup program but it will have a full functionality of computers other then displaying to screen and redstone. You could use something like nsh to control the satellite from the ground and install programs though a rednet file sending program. It would allow creativity in how the satellite are programmed. You could even use them as a external file host and have it only send the files if you provide the correct password

Hope this makes sense as this idea is one of the best i have seen in the suggestions area in a long time

I think that's the idea.

diegodan1893, on 02 February 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

KillaVanilla: I like your idea, it makes the peripheral more realistic and less overpowered. As the height limit is 255, the satellite can't "move" it but we can save its coordinates in a file and change them in every movement. In order to launch the satellite, you need a controller where you set the coords of the satellite x and z (to work with GPS Api like in ComputerCraft and not real Minecraft coords), and then launch it. In the controller you can move it by making a path (for example: two blocks left and one up) and it will say the fuel cost and the time it will take to move.

The satellite won't be able to run any program, it only acts as a repeater. In the antenna you set a channel and in another computer you need the same channel so they can comunicate. If you want private messages in a server, encrypt them. But if the satellite receives a message like "gps locate" or something like that, it will return its coords. As current GPS API in vanilla CC work with rednet, we will need to make a new GPS API for this peripheral.

What's the fun in non-programmable satellites?

KillaVanilla, on 02 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Okay, quick disclaimer: I have no idea how Minecraft or ComputerCraft work on the java side, and I only know how classes work from C++.
1. Yeah, that's similar to what I had in mind, but why not just use the "normal" Minecraft coordinates while manually setting Y? There's nothing in CC that needs to know the exact world XYZ coordinates of a computer.

2. Wait, so *just* repeats rednet messages and responds to GPS queries? Why not just emulate a terminal while discarding all attempts to write to screen? That's the only way I can see positioning and stationkeeping working as I envisioned it, and would make the peripheral fun to use. If you need to send a program up, simply provide a floppy disk with a startup file in it. We could even use this base to branch out into a whole "unmanned space exploration" mod or something.
However, it's your mod; don't listen to me if you don't want to.

1) There's actually very little in ComputerCraft that needs computers to be blocks - there's a deliberate gap between the code for computers and the code for computer blocks. I was able to make computers run on smart-cards, which are items, for Immibis's Peripherals, but that idea was scrapped.

2) I completely agree.

TheArchitect, on 02 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

What I was thinking of was a program for computers/turtles to act as a rednet relay - in other words, to perform network mapping and organised routing, much like real life routers do. You give them data and a destination, and they'll find the way to get it there.

It's not very different in CC. Router computers would poll the network-enabled computers within reach (including other router computers) to get an idea of the local network topology and generate routing tables accordingly. When you give them a destination (a computer ID you want to send data to), they would poll all known and connected network nodes to find the destination CC ID and, if it exists and is listening to network packets, to relay the data through the shortest path available.

Once you have that program, where you just send your data to the nearest network node and let it reach its destination from there, it's not a stretch at all if one of those nodes, instead of being a computer sitting on the roof of a building, was a turtle hovering at y=255. Being a turtle only for the ease of sending it up. This would be your relay satellite, no additional content added to the mod.

The point of satellites isn't to relay messages around your base. I've used turtles for that easily in the past.
The point of satellites is for long-distance communication, such as to other players' bases that are outside the chunk loading distance from your base.

[Sebra]

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Is the fuel thing really necessary?
Satellites could just have a "satellite.boost()" function they have to call every now and then to show they're not frozen, and a "satellite.deorbit()" function if you want to bring them down immediately.
I probably wouldn't have a reason to move my satellites sideways, but I wouldn't mind the option being there.

Changing position may be useful or not but I do not see real reason of periodical boost. If satellite become frozen it just not responding. It can be restarted by server restart or other event. Or let it be just a star in the sky.

Quote

In order to de-orbit satellites that are unresponsive but still calling satellite.boost(), perhaps the satellite BIOS could deorbit the satellite when it receives a specific message, but only if the sender is within a few blocks horizontally of the satellite - so you can't deorbit random satellites, you'd have to control the launch site.

No need to bios hook. It is too destructive. Someone can send a turtle high above your house and ask your sat to drop.
Just launch something to collide with unwanted satellite. It is destructive too, but unavoidable.

[diegodan1893]

KillaVanilla, on 02 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Okay, quick disclaimer: I have no idea how Minecraft or ComputerCraft work on the java side, and I only know how classes work from C++.
1. Yeah, that's similar to what I had in mind, but why not just use the "normal" Minecraft coordinates while manually setting Y? There's nothing in CC that needs to know the exact world XYZ coordinates of a computer.

I like have my house in 0,0 coords but I have been thinking and use Minecraft coords probably should be better.

KillaVanilla, on 02 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

2. Wait, so *just* repeats rednet messages and responds to GPS queries? Why not just emulate a terminal while discarding all attempts to write to screen? That's the only way I can see positioning and stationkeeping working as I envisioned it, and would make the peripheral fun to use. If you need to send a program up, simply provide a floppy disk with a startup file in it. We could even use this base to branch out into a whole "unmanned space exploration" mod or something.
However, it's your mod; don't listen to me if you don't want to.

Skullblade, on 02 February 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

what if the Redsatellites get sent up with a code on a disk drive named as startup and when the satellite reaches the desired altitude it stops and the only program it will run is the startup program but it will have a full functionality of computers other then displaying to screen and redstone. You could use something like nsh to control the satellite from the ground and install programs though a rednet file sending program. It would allow creativity in how the satellite are programmed. You could even use them as a external file host and have it only send the files if you provide the correct password

Hope this makes sense as this idea is one of the best i have seen in the suggestions area in a long time

I had the same idea yestarday, but it was too late so I didn't posted it. The satellite will have a disk drive that will execute like CC computers but without writing anything in the screen (there is no screen). But you can't change the disk or the program while is in the space. To change programs you must make a program in the disk that allows you to do that. It will be like a normal CC computer but you can't go there to change the disk or control it manually.
I really like this idea, think of all the things we can make with this! Obviously limited to the disk space limit in CC.

TheArchitect, on 02 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Once you have that program, where you just send your data to the nearest network node and let it reach its destination from there, it's not a stretch at all if one of those nodes, instead of being a computer sitting on the roof of a building, was a turtle hovering at y=255. Being a turtle only for the ease of sending it up. This would be your relay satellite, no additional content added to the mod.

This won't work if the computers are too far, there will be unloaded chunks in the middle of them and turtles can't work in unloaded chunks.

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Is there a reason to make it unlike rednet? I don't know if peripherals can send and receive rednet messages currently (it's not part of the peripheral API, though, so it's unsupported by dan200 and Cloudy).

At first this peripheral was only a way to do rednet range to be infinite ingame so it was a bit owerpowered. I thought it can be solved if it work with channels instead of computers ID so if you want a private message you must encrypt it. Now with fuel and other ideas this isn't really necessary but I like the channels idea, and I don't know if peripherals can interact with rednet.

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Meaning you can only send one message per second (emulating low bandwidth), or you can send messages as fast as you like but they all take a second to get there (emulating speed-of-light delay)?

I want to emulate speed-of-light delay. I said a second as an example, maybe it will be 0.5 seconds or less.

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

No. No more chunkloaders that aren't dedicated as chunkloaders. Do you even know how many servers ban quarries because they load chunks? If people want a chunkloader they can get a chunkloader.

I agree with that.

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Is the fuel thing really necessary?
Satellites could just have a "satellite.boost()" function they have to call every now and then to show they're not frozen, and a "satellite.deorbit()" function if you want to bring them down immediately.
I probably wouldn't have a reason to move my satellites sideways, but I wouldn't mind the option being there.

In order to de-orbit satellites that are unresponsive but still calling satellite.boost(), perhaps the satellite BIOS could deorbit the satellite when it receives a specific message, but only if the sender is within a few blocks horizontally of the satellite - so you can't deorbit random satellites, you'd have to control the launch site.

I think its better with fuel so you can move satellites, useful when you want to create a GPS network and the satellites are wrong placed. Also this make satellites wont be for an infinite time in the space, they will fall after being a long time in the space.
To move the satellite or call satellite.deorbit() you only can use the controller with the GUI to do it manually and without computers or with a computer next to the controller using it as a peripheral. This prevent griefers to deorbit your satellite.


A lot of messages! Hope I have not forgotten to answer any. By the way, I'm really bad with names, do you like RedSat?

[immibis]

Sebra, on 02 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Changing position may be useful or not but I do not see real reason of periodical boost. If satellite become frozen it just not responding. It can be restarted by server restart or other event. Or let it be just a star in the sky.

No need to bios hook. It is too destructive. Someone can send a turtle high above your house and ask your sat to drop.
Just launch something to collide with unwanted satellite. It is destructive too, but unavoidable.

Yeah, launching something to collide with it is probably better.

Sebra, on 02 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Is there a reason to make it unlike rednet? I don't know if peripherals can send and receive rednet messages currently (it's not part of the peripheral API, though, so it's unsupported by dan200 and Cloudy).

At first this peripheral was only a way to do rednet range to be infinite ingame so it was a bit owerpowered. I thought it can be solved if it work with channels instead of computers ID so if you want a private message you must encrypt it. Now with fuel and other ideas this isn't really necessary but I like the channels idea, and I don't know if peripherals can interact with rednet.

Not infinite, just with a longer range than ground computers, and no chunkloading requirements as satellites would exist outside of chunks.
Satellites could communicate with other satellites over a long distance, but only with ground computers that are in the area underneath them (and several chunks to each side). You'd still have to make a chain of satellites if you wanted really long distances.

Sebra, on 02 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

think its better with fuel so you can move satellites, useful when you want to create a GPS network and the satellites are wrong placed. Also this make satellites wont be for an infinite time in the space, they will fall after being a long time in the space.
To move the satellite or call satellite.deorbit() you only can use the controller with the GUI to do it manually and without computers or with a computer next to the controller using it as a peripheral. This prevent griefers to deorbit your satellite.

Is the controller one of the blocks you use to launch the satellite? You should need to either use satellite.deorbit() from your program, or collide something with it.

Sebra, on 02 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

A lot of messages! Hope I have not forgotten to answer any. By the way, I'm really bad with names, do you like RedSat?

Well, if someone makes a network of satellites, they could call it Skynet

[Sebra]

Bad quoting, Immibis

[NoLongerUsed]

i can make the model for satalites
but i need someone to put it in the game using the wireless modem code but with longer ranger

[KillaVanilla]

immibis, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

-snip-
Is the fuel thing really necessary?
Satellites could just have a "satellite.boost()" function they have to call every now and then to show they're not frozen, and a "satellite.deorbit()" function if you want to bring them down immediately.
I probably wouldn't have a reason to move my satellites sideways, but I wouldn't mind the option being there.

In order to de-orbit satellites that are unresponsive but still calling satellite.boost(), perhaps the satellite BIOS could deorbit the satellite when it receives a specific message, but only if the sender is within a few blocks horizontally of the satellite - so you can't deorbit random satellites, you'd have to control the launch site.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I think repositioning satellites would be very useful for some applications (GPS and rednet relays/routers come to mind) and would reduce the hassle to initially set one up. You could set up a "launch facility" and simply launch and maneuver your satellites to the correct position. The "boosting" that's occasionally required also makes it challenging and less overpowered. A "deorbit" function would be nice, but it could also introduce the possibility of griefing (launch satellite, maneuver to target, deorbit, target goes boom).

mtwiscool, on 03 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

i can make the model for satalites
but i need someone to put it in the game using the wireless modem code but with longer ranger

...Why would a satellite that's not supposed to be seen need a model?

[diegodan1893]

immibis, on 03 February 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

Is the controller one of the blocks you use to launch the satellite? You should need to either use satellite.deorbit() from your program, or collide something with it.

Yes its required to launch the satellite and will be the only block that can satellite.deorbit() or move your satellite, I plan to make it work with a GUI (right click on it) and as a peripheral so you can control it with a computer.

KillaVanilla, on 03 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

...Why would a satellite that's not supposed to be seen need a model?

Before launch it you can see it, so they need a model.

mtwiscool, on 03 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

i can make the model for satalites
but i need someone to put it in the game using the wireless modem code but with longer ranger

I will not accept contributors, until I have done everything in Github and have a topic in pheriperals forum.

[Sebra]

KillaVanilla, on 03 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

...Why would a satellite that's not supposed to be seen need a model?

Best way it will be seen on a sky as a red star.

[KillaVanilla]

diegodan1893, on 03 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

KillaVanilla, on 03 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

...Why would a satellite that's not supposed to be seen need a model?

Before launch it you can see it, so they need a model.

I forgot about that,

Sebra, on 03 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

KillaVanilla, on 03 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

...Why would a satellite that's not supposed to be seen need a model?

Best way it will be seen on a sky as a red star.

When I meant "not seen", I meant "not seen on the ground". However, I agree with you. Seeing satellites as red stars would be cool.

[digipenguin]

although, please add an option in the config so that satelites dont need boost(), or they have an infinite fuel supply.
I almost think that sattelites should have their own config file for things like modem range (enable infinite range)
also, I don't really like the concept of sattelite collisions. griefing is bad enough without sattelites being detroyed (or just throw it as an option in the config)
I love the idea redsat so I can stop with these stupid linked floppies (and the format command wrecking them...)
I also agree that they shouldn't use rednet, but a more "insecure" frequency system.

I guess wired rednet with WR-CBE would work for some people, but WR-CBE doesn't work on my computer. some forge error...

[ChunLing]

Speaking of configuration settings, I really don't see a problem with increasing the max range of modems if you want. It's even fairly realistic to do so.